lcenter

I was raised a Christian and claim to be one today. Over the years (I'm 62) I have studied in depth, the religion of other cultures. These would include Judaism, Islam, Baha'i and Buddhism.

From what I have read on here there seems to be an attitude that Freemasonry is willing to accept a wide range of theological/philosophical beliefs regarding what does or does not make up a 'Supreme Being'.

I put forward the case of the Buddhist. I have heard, that there are Buddhist Freemasons, although I have not met any. The Buddhist view on God varies widely. The Buddhists do not believe in a separate all powerful entity that created the universe, and directs our lives. Instead, if drawn on the point, they will concede that an all powerful force exists in the universe, and that it is at one, and integrated into everything else in the universe, and that you and I are indistinguishable from it, for we are it and it is us.

So on the one hand, we have an acknowledgement of a 'Supreme Power', but on the other hand we have the hypothesis that we are that supreme power.

So here's the question... Based on the above, can a Buddhist be a Freemason? I will reserve my views until later.

Les

That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek!

chgregory

Brother Les,

Interesting question! The buddhist holds a belief quoted from the "Beliefs" web site: Do Buddhists believe in a god?

"If by “god” one means a creator of the universe or a being guiding ultimate human fate, then Buddhists do not believe in such. Buddhism emphasises the concept of conditional causation where everything in this world comes into being according to different sets of causes and conditions. Plants and flowers grow spring, summer, autumn and winter constitute the yearly cycle of the four seasons human beings go through the process of birth, old age, illness and death."

This conflicts with the requirement that all Mason place their trust in "God" and swear upon their holy writings. "Your trust being in "God" your faith is well founded" holds much less meaning if you do not believe. I also think that there is a strong requirement that if you can't express a belief in "Surpreme Power" outside yourself, you can not be bound by an oath sworn to that power.

I have a very good friend, who is a good man and who lives his life as a good man, but he is not able to resolve the issue of belief in a surpreme being, so although he asked me if I might help him join Masons, I told him he could not until he could decide that he believed in one. He is not an atheist, is just can't seem to decide if he believes or not. I think that is call "ignostic" but he has the same sort ob belief we see in the followers of Budda, he thinks something is to the idea of a supreme being but he beleives it is within him. That precludes his membership in Freemasonry, at least to my way of thinking. I am willing to be swayed, but I can't figure out another way to read that situation.

F & S,

__________________
Cliff Gregory, 32

lcenter

OK Bro. Cliff,

Let's examine the "Supreme Power outside yourself" concept. If, as your friend, and the Buddhists believe, there is a supreme power that is at the same time outside themselves and as well as inside themselves, does that not meet the criteria?

The Masonic dictate says you must recognize the existence of a Higher Power/Supreme Being, it does not say "specifically" that concurrent with that belief you cannot also hold the belief that that same power is ALSO within you.

Let us recognize that Freemasonry evolved in a Christian environment, and at one time Freemasonry was a lot more "Christian" than it is today. Christianity has largely been removed from Masonic ritual to widen it's appeal and to not ostracize any "God fearing" person. But we have to recognize that the interpretation of God is a Judeo-Christian construct.

I believe being an "Agnostic" is fundamentally different than the belief held by Buddhists. An agnostic is by definition someone who claims the truth cannot be known (GREEK a - without, gnosis - knowledge), whereas the Buddhist are sure they do know. But I digress....

If when we "de-Christianized" Freemasonry, did we really mean to be all encompassing, or only allowing those who believed in the "God of the desert", because if we truly meant belief in a higher power, then the Buddhist concept should fly. Modern scholars argue there is some reason to suspect that Christ himself may well have studied Buddhism in the far East during his absence from the Jewish scene, and many of his teachings relate far more to the teachings of Buddha than to traditional Jewish theology of the time.

Back to you....

Les

__________________
That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek!

chgregory

Bro Les,

First let me appologize for mistyping agnostic. In ritual, at least as a point of view I thought the statement was fairly straight forward. I am now questioning my mental process, as I initially felt the questions, and therefore the answer was clear. I can see it is not always as clear depending on point of view.

First I have a little conflict with the inside/outside surpreme being, because even Christainity we experience a God who knows all we think and do. If that is so, does he also live within us and outside us? This issue is that if it is in and out of us, than what stands our belief apart from that of the Buddist or the agnostic.

I hold the reasoning that the difference is with the power to compel acts of good; "verified" by an external (albeit also internal) force. I can't see how that is possible if all of the force of the surpreme being is located within you and subject to your humanity or lack of it.

When I swear on my bible (I am a Christian Masons and a Knights Templar), I am subjecting myself to the pentality that my outside surpreme being can inflict.

If, as a Budist (much like a US Congressman) I am my own best authority, my word is exactly as good as I wish it to be.

As a Buddhist, my moral code say "the light dwells in me and I dwell in the light" (the words of a Buddist friend of mine), than the whole of my promise rests in me and not in my acceptance of something greater than I that can hold me, at least on some level, accountable for my actions, words, deed or inactions.

I do not for a single second doubt that there are good men who are agnostic, buddhist, taoist, shintoists or atheist but if my belief and conviction holds me accountable to no greater power than myself, I am still above my promise because I am a "god", and therefore not trustworthy on the basis of my word alone.

My quandry comes when I think, that my friend is a Buddhist, and he refuses to eat anything that has a face, he holds all life as dear as his own and I do not beleive he would lie by intent. Having said that I remain at oddswith his actions as "own best authority" because I have seen good men corrutped by power.

Anyone what to help me with this problem? I know how I feel, and even why, I just do not know if I am right.

GREAT QUESTION...as I said at the onset.

F&S,

__________________
Cliff Gregory, 32

Emeth1

One might argue that christians, jews, muslims etc. have been corrupted by their beliefs as evidences by the wars, crusades, jihads etc. So that being siad if I were a buddhist I might consider a man who has such belief to be unworthy due to the past practices of his religion. Where as a buddhist is true to himself on his path to enlightenment. He consequence for betrayal of his beliefs is a lack of belief in himself. I would find that a greater penalty than some religion that would allow me ot repent and all is forgiven...

Not arguing brothers, just stirring up some thought. I can see both sides of the equation, and personally have met many good men of religious belief that were entirley corrupted even with the consequences of that belief> So one might ask is it the penace of a diety that makes men be obedient etc., or is it the inherant character of a man that does so?

__________________
Stewart McGee
Venerable Master
Emeth Lodge (triangle) #8 GOUSA
www.emethlodge.org
[www.masonsonthelevel.blogspot.com

lcenter

Welcome to the discussion Emeth1. I am sad as I had just finished a very long and detailed response to Bro. Cliff's last post, and somewhere in the reviewing I lost it instead of posting it!!! GRRRRRRR

You are correct Emeth1, I believe that many religions have been corrupted by men. In my now lost post I raised the very point you raise... Is it fear of reprisal that keeps us on the straight and narrow and how does that differ from "right intentions" (one of the Buddhist eight-fold paths).

I will try to reconstruct the post.... it had some valuable thought in it as well as much praise for Bro. Cliff for engaging in this dialog.

Les

__________________
That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek!

chgregory

My Nobel Brothers;

As I began to respond to this post I find it is necessary to explain that while I have undertaken the counter-point on this thread, I fully understand that there are good men without the benefit of belief in a surpreme architect of the universe, as well as some rather questional folks who have loudly professed to be highly religious, given the example of Jimmy Baker and Oral Robers, two very entrepreneurial and self proclaimed religious giants whose word proved to hold little value when tested. So I may not have my entire heart in this side of the cause. however for the sake of friendly and brotherly discourse, I will continue on this tack for a bit longer.

Our ritual says that the belief in a "surpreme architect of the universe" is essential, and that is the basis for my support of the need to find some means of standing on the letter of the law. I am not certain I hae heard a compelling reason to ignore the "letter of the law." I also do not have a strongly compelling reason not to approach the "spirit of the law" with a little more humanity and see the point of my worthy brothers.

I concede that the goal of making good men better could certainly be applied to those who do not accept our view of the surpreme architect and as such we would have to judge each man on his merits.

How than does a world wide organization know the standards are shared by all? This is not a challenge, meerly a question, because this issue is one faced world round since we are no longer small issolated countries but a global entity.

Our simplicty has gone by the wayside of war, jihad and the rest; we are not as nieve as we once were and yet I doubt if we are as enligthened as we see ourselves. So what is the answer, do we adhere to an old standard of measures, that could be exclusionist in nature or do we take an inclusive path that might dilute the ritual? Is the value in the men (and in some cases women) made better or in the ritual? This is the delima of religion faced often in the world of 2008 and since our question posses a moral question, I am not sure how we might separate the answer from religion, that which is ofter our moral compass.

I would likely consider the petition of a Buddhist no differently than a Christian, but what about a man who trusts his prayers to many gods? We have made an effort to be politically correct and all inclusive, which has value in a moral society of men, but is that subject to some limits?

I can't answer all fo these questions even for myself, but in posing them I feel I better understand how I might act, and I am therefore ready to make a choice on the same basis I use today for other good men.

S&F,

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Cliff Gregory, 32

lcenter

Nothing! And that's partly where I'm trying to get to in my own head! Let's drop Agnostic from these discussions, because for all practical purposes they can be said to NOT BELIEVE as they are unsure, whereas Christians, Moslems, Jews and Buddhists all BELIEVE in something.

As Christians we believe that God will punish us if we commit crimes against our fellow man. But that punishment may not come in this life, so we have faith (or fear) that it will come in the after life.

Buddhist hold that if you commit said crime the bad karma that you generate may well visit you in this life but will almost certainly follow you into your next lives. So then, does the Christian or Buddhist really have that much of a difference here? Both believe that forces external to themselves will have a negative impact of their life, now or later.



Like you, I am also a Knight Templar, but I propose that we as sentient beings subject ourselves to our beliefs, and then govern ourselves accordingly. And that it is our beliefs (irrespective of what they are) that forges us into the people we want to be.

In the 3rd° we learn that death has no sting equal to that of falsehood and dishonour. That a man may willingly die rather than betray a sacred trust reposed in him. What is that? Is it faith? Is it a knowing and belief in oneself that is stronger than steel?


How different is the statement "The Holy Spirit of the Lord dwells in me, and I dwell in the Holy Spirit of the Lord". And I put it to you that your conviction to your belief is what binds you and holds you accountable, because at the end of the day, in both cases, it is only belief that separates the Christian and the Buddhist.


I think your friend would be quick to point out that no Buddhist considers him/herself a god and certainly not any form of authority. I think he would say that Buddhists are struggling to overcome the same things we are struggling to overcome... ignorance, disturbing attitudes and contaminated actions.

My contention is that nothing really separates Christians and Buddhists EXCEPT their view of an all powerful force in the universe. The Judeo/Christian/Islamic/Baha'i view holds that that all powerful force takes the manifestation of a localized, definable, separate entity, external to us, yet we strive to bring that power within us. The Buddhist hold the view that not only does the power exist, but it exists EVERYWHERE, within us and without us.


There is no "right or wrong" here. I am not trying to change your point of view, if anything I am challenging my own beliefs. For I believe that Buddhists believe in a power in the universe greater than themselves, and their beliefs are not significantly different from traditional western beliefs, and therefore I submit that according to what I believe "the intent" was, Buddhists should indeed be allowed to be Freemasons.

I submit for your consideration a slight angle on the same theme... take a worthy Brother who after years of dedicated and on-going service to Craft, has discovered, after years of personal study that his view of God has expanded. He now understands God to be more omnipotent, more pervasive, and all present than he previously believed. He no longer believes that God lives somewhere "in the sky", but exists in every leaf, and in every flower, and in every man, woman and child on the planet.

Must he now renounce his membership in the Craft? His views on Freemasonry haven't changed, nor has his value system diminished. He is still 'A good man and true', he still believes in a supreme force in the universe, but his vision has expanded. Where does that leave him with the Craft?

Bro. Cliff, I really must applaud you for entering into this dialog, many would not have touched it with a barge pole... I have enjoyed it greatly!!!

Les

__________________
That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek!

chgregory

Brother Les,

I too appreciate the level of dialog between good men on the merits of a course of action. I did not need swaying as I am pretty center of the road on this question. I enjoy looking at a question from all sides I can. I look forward to our next opportunity to talk through an interesting topic. I also look forward to my visit to Bermuda, we are planning on late November although I am waiting for my family to decide on an exact date.

Warmest Regards,

Cliff

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Cliff Gregory, 32

lcenter

I don't really want to rain on my own parade, but intrinsic to my belief as a Freemason, is adherence to the obligation every Mason (or Candidate) takes, on the VSL dedicated to his faith in his supreme power, to uphold the tenets of Freemasonry.

The Buddhist have no such book. So therein lies a bit of a problem... I raise it here for consideration.

Les

__________________
That which you are seeking, is causing you to seek!