Should this man be disciplined? or expelled? What do you think?

cemab4y · 04-11-2008, 02:34 AM

Here is a hypothetical:

A Man belongs to two(2) different lodges in two(2) different states. He therefore, belongs to two(2) different grand Lodges, in the two(2) respective states.

One of his Grand Lodges is in full communications with Prince Hall Grand Lodges in nearly all of the states, and abroad. One of his Grand Lodges is NOT in communications with Prince Hall, anywhere, and considers all Prince Hall lodges and Grand Lodges to be "clandestine".

Suppose this man visits and fellowships with a Prince Hall lodge, that is in full communications with one of his Grand Lodges, and this Grand Lodge has accepted the Prince Hall lodge as "regular"?

Should this man visit and fellowship with Prince Hall lodges? Since one of his Grand Lodges is perfectly all right with visitation/fellowship, is he in violation of any regulations? Should the non-recognizing Grand Lodge, discipline or expel him?

D. W. Brown · 04-11-2008, 05:29 PM

I think he should expell the GL that doesn't live in the 21st century.

Stealth · 04-12-2008, 10:04 AM

Right on Brother Dale.
ANY Grand Lodge that threatens expulsion to any Master Mason that visits another Lodge or Grand Lodge of Master Masons spends too much time trying to rule the lives of its members. No GL has the right to govern who another Master Mason visits with, eats with, or are friends with.

They need to get a life....

grandsecretary · 04-14-2008, 07:39 AM

A Freemason who is a member of two Grand Lodge jurisdictions in North America, from circumstance of living and working abroad, visits a regular Lodge of another U.S. jurisdiction.

This Lodge is in Amity with one of the U.S. Grand Lodges in question but not "recognised" by the other one.

The one that did not "recognise" has moved the expulsion of that Brother which, if successful, will bar him from attending:

Both of his U.S. Lodges; and the "unrecognised" Lodge due to its Treaty of Amity with the one that "recognises" it.

Bonkers!

D. W. Brown · 04-15-2008, 10:28 PM

Yes.. This one is quite interesting, I got a peek at some of the exchange between the Grand Secretary (of the said GL) and this Brother and I have to admit I was quite amazed at the tone coming from the GL officer. I'll post as soon as I validate their authenticity.

cemab4y · 05-08-2008, 06:20 AM

Update: I have been informed of the trial date. I cannot attend, I am in Iraq.

jpeffer2007 · 05-08-2008, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cemab4y

Update: I have been informed of the trial date. I cannot attend, I am in Iraq.

Bro. Martin,

I'm sure the GL of KY has already issued judgment so the issue of a trial is a moot point. I'm sorry for the way you've been treated. I hope the GL of NY does not follow KY's lead. In my opinion you expressed what is best about true Free-Masonry, tolerance and brotherly love, in your decision to visit with PH Masons. I'm just sorry those same tenants aren't being shown towards you.

Jamie

Mystic knight · 07-12-2008, 02:58 PM

How can Prince Hall be a clandestine lodge if they are considered a different organization? They only use these weasel words for one purpose-segregation. Not liking blacks is one thing, but these guys have proved themselves. They ARE Masons. They are just not welcome in many U.S. lodges. We should just call it what it is. Racism pure and simple. No Mason should be disciplined for visiting a Prince Hall lodge. In fact, the racist brother should be the one disciplined for practicing "apartheid" policies. There is no way this behaviour is Masonic. There is no legitimate rule within the Masonic process that would preclude a black man from joining one of our lodges. At least not since 1863 when Abe Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation. The problem is there are some Masons, and it's hard to fathom how they are even Masons, that are still living in the pre-1863 era.

As long as they are "freeborn," of good character and report, the prescribed age, believe in the Supreme Being and have no criminal record they have every right to petition ANY Masonic lodge. Sadly, some Grand lodges in the U.S. have been perverted with hate, which is hardly brotherly love. We need more strong and true Masons like M.W. Bro. Haas. The others are doing great harm to our organization since they subscribe to hate rather than brotherly love, yet they go undisciplined. It is due time for this to change. Stand up for what you know to be right brethren and do not allow hateful "brothers" to ruin Freemasonry.

chgregory · 07-12-2008, 07:27 PM

My Brothers,

My first reaction is to say the GL that recognized Prince Hall Masons would be likely to ignore any expulsion from the GL of KY because Bro Martin was acting with the GL of NY's tenets, but that is the reasonable man test and frankly we can't always apply that test to this sort of issue.

Had I been Bro Martin, I believe I would have demitted from that lodge in KY that was still practicing racism when I was relocated by the service.

I think a lot could be told by reading the emails, not saying the GL of KY would be right in any way, just that you could make some better conslusions.

My very first question was what brought this to the attention of the GL of KY and what attempts to resolve the issue were made on either side.

Overall the issue is based in old ways of thinking. I have a friend who is a mason in the deep south and when he came to visit here I invited him to attend lodge. He asked me if we had black masons here, and I said we do they are mostly in the Prince Hall Lodges, but I have met some in Norhtern VA regular lodges. He said he had best not attend because if his GL found he had been seated in a lodge with Black Masons he would be expelled.

At first I thought he was kidding, I have known this man for well over 40 years and he has not a single racest bone in his body, he believes in the brotherhood and friendship. I would never, ever think ill of him, but that evening, I told him that was wrong on so many levels, and he agreed. He also said he could not stand to be expelled from his lodge and could not take such a chance. I reassured him that our lodge is part of the GL of VA and that we live within the rules of our GL, and that I could not see such a thing happening, but he stood fast and we missed the meeting and he missed sitting in lodge with some very good men and masons.

The problem was not my friend, Bob, it was his fear of brothers telling him he was no longer welcome in his home lodge. He is retired from the Army and is a very good man, but fear will make a good man bend.

This is the second time I have heard of this sort of thing happening, and it saddens me, but it does not cause me to give up on Masonry or even on the GL of any state that still adheres to racest views, because even as masonry is here to make good men better, I believe we each have an obligation to help make the order better.

Walking away or accepting bad policy is not the way a better man should act, and we as men striving to be better should not allow old rules that no longer make much sense to be carved in stone. I have read about MW Brother Haas and now Brother Martin.

Is all of this a good arguement for a central Grand Lodge oversite committee, who could mediate in this sort if issue or even an overall authority for all mason in the USA? I don't truly know the answer to that question, but it is interesting to consider what it would take to resolve such an issue.

I am very proud of the GL of VA and I have the pleasure of setting in lodge, valley, chapter and shrine with some of the GL officers from here. I can't for one single moment picture them being involved in such actions as these two cases, and yet the gentleman officers of other jurisdictions reached their positions because they are good men and somehow the actions were taken.

Please accept my most humble regrets for damage done to you Bro Martin, and I will keep you in my prayers for a safe return and a positive outcome of this issue.

S & F,

LarryW · 07-13-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D. W. Brown

Yes.. This one is quite interesting, I got a peek at some of the exchange between the Grand Secretary (of the said GL) and this Brother and I have to admit I was quite amazed at the tone coming from the GL officer. I'll post as soon as I validate their authenticity.

So it is not a hypothetical question after all? Why was it posed as such?