Members List
Who's Online

Welcome Guest to The Blue Lodge an on-line community for Freemasons and interested non-Freemasons.

The Blue Lodge is a community portal for discussing the ancient art of Freemasonry and it's future. If you are a Antient or Moderns Freemason, Knights Templar, Scottish Rite, York Rite, Shriner, Eastern Star, Prince Hall Mason or just read Dan Brown's book "The Da Vinci Code" and want to learn more about the "true" art of Freemasonry, then this is the right place for you.

You are currently viewing our community portal as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and access our other FREE features. By registering as a member you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos and access many other special features.


Click Here to Register for your FREE Account!

Go Back   The Blue Lodge > Blue Lodge Forums > Modern Freemasonry Discussions


  No Account? Register Now!
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 06-09-2006, 03:15 PM   #1
D. W. Brown
TBL Staff
 
D. W. Brown's Avatar
 
D. W. Brown is Offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 652
Rep: D. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to all
Rep Power: 10
Send a message via ICQ to D. W. Brown Send a message via Skype™ to D. W. Brown
Antient and Moderns Comparison

This was crossposted from the United Grand Lodge of America's website.


Antient Freemasonry:
  • Has numerous Grand Lodges throughout the country usually divided into jurisdictions by state.
  • Most Grand Lodges recognize one another as legitimate but from time to time there are disputes, the most recent in Minnesota.
  • Based on Judeo/Christian philosophy but open to men of most monotheistic religions. In rare cases open to polytheists.
  • Teaches a form of morality common to that found in Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
  • Has a multitude of side organizations, some are invitation-only. These organizations claim to be able to teach things that are above and beyond the degree of Master Mason, or in some cases to further elaborate on the Symbolic three degrees.
  • Has purely social organizations attached to it such as the Shrine and Grotto.
  • Has a multitude of diverse charities.
  • Offers little in form of continuing education, Masonic or otherwise.
  • Most of its lodges are social in nature and about 75% of the membership is 70+ years of age.
  • The Grand Lodges in the Southeastern United States do not accept African-American members nor do they recognize the legitimacy of the primarily African-American Prince Hall Grand Lodges.
  • The Antient Grand Lodges do not allow their members to visit Modern lodges and have strict penalties for violators, usually expulsion from their organization.
  • Due to some of their side orders being by invitation, not all of their members can join all of their organizations.

Modern Freemasonry:
  • One central Grand Lodge oversees the entire United States.
  • Based on natural philosophy, science, and a unique system of morality not associated with any known religion.
  • Offers only the three Symbolic degrees of Free-Masonry: Apprentice, Fellow-Craft, and Master Mason.
  • Does not offer any side orders or purely social organizations.
  • Contributes to three charities: Habitat for Humanity, Amnesty International, and The Nature Conservancy.
  • Accepts men of all races and creeds.
  • Offers extensive Masonic, Moral, and Scientific continuing education.
    Its lodges are community focused and are composed of men with an average age of 35.
  • The Modern Grand Lodge does not concern itself with whether or not its members visit lodges from other systems.
  • All members are able to participate in all degrees.
  • Does not have invitation-only side orders.
  • The Modern Grand Lodge is the only Grand Lodge in the United States that offers the three Symbolic degrees as they were in 1735 under the original Premier Grand Lodge of 1717.
__________________
Dale Brown, 3°
TBL Staff
__________________

Must Reads for Every Mason:

A Peculiar System of Morality | Laudable Pursuit | The Ancient Landmarks
The Truth About the Antients and the Moderns | It's About Time

__________________

Must Visit Links for Masons:

Grand Orient de France | Grand Orient of the United States of America
The Burning Taper | Halcyon Lodge | The Philalethes Society
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 07-27-2007, 05:07 PM   #2
grandsecretary
Senior Member
 
grandsecretary's Avatar
 
grandsecretary is Offline
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: York, England
Posts: 126
Rep: grandsecretary will become famous soon enough
Rep Power: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to grandsecretary
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

If anybody wishes to understand the place in Masonic history of the " Antients" and the " Moderns" Grand Lodges then a visit to www.grandlodgeofallengland.org will assist. Webpages: 'Grand Lodges in England'; and 'York Grand Masters'; will provide a chronological explanation. This website also refers to the other Grand Lodges which have formed our rich Masonic heritage.
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 09-11-2007, 07:53 PM   #3
D. W. Brown
TBL Staff
 
D. W. Brown's Avatar
 
D. W. Brown is Offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 652
Rep: D. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to all
Rep Power: 10
Send a message via ICQ to D. W. Brown Send a message via Skype™ to D. W. Brown
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

Thanks for the link. I would be very interested in hearing from your historian, do they get on the internet much?
__________________
Dale Brown, 3°
TBL Staff
__________________

Must Reads for Every Mason:

A Peculiar System of Morality | Laudable Pursuit | The Ancient Landmarks
The Truth About the Antients and the Moderns | It's About Time

__________________

Must Visit Links for Masons:

Grand Orient de France | Grand Orient of the United States of America
The Burning Taper | Halcyon Lodge | The Philalethes Society
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 09-22-2007, 02:34 AM   #4
Kevin Christians
Junior Member
 
Kevin Christians is Offline
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 17
Rep: Kevin Christians is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 0
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandsecretary
If anybody wishes to understand the place in Masonic history of the " Antients" and the " Moderns" Grand Lodges then a visit to www.grandlodgeofallengland.org will assist. Webpages: 'Grand Lodges in England'; and 'York Grand Masters'; will provide a chronological explanation. This website also refers to the other Grand Lodges which have formed our rich Masonic heritage.

Can someone explain why some Grand Lodges are "Free & Accepted Masons", while others are " Ancient, Free & Accepted Masons"? Is it something to do with the old Antients/ Moderns thing?
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 09-27-2007, 02:52 PM   #5
jbarr
Junior Member
 
jbarr is Offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14
Rep: jbarr is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 0
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Christians
Can someone explain why some Grand Lodges are "Free & Accepted Masons", while others are " Ancient, Free & Accepted Masons"? Is it something to do with the old Antients/ Moderns thing?
Is anyone able to answer this? A friend of mine asked me this, and I could not provide him with an adequate answer. And to confuse this more, I'm a member of the Divver Lodge in South Carolina, and it is (as are all the lodged in SC, I believe) an AFM ( Ancient Free Masons) lodge.

Update: Google can be your friend. I did a search on "F&AM" vs "AF&AM" and found lots of interesting responses....
__________________
-Jim
MasonicTips.com

Last edited by jbarr : 09-27-2007 at 02:57 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 09-27-2007, 10:27 PM   #6
David Herman
Super Moderator
 
David Herman's Avatar
 
David Herman is Offline
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 271
Rep: David Herman is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 3
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

From http://www.100megsfree4.com/stimso/firestone.htm

What is the difference between AF&AM and F&AM Lodges?

Roger M. Firestone

After the foundation of the first Grand Lodge in England in 1717, a rival Grand Lodge arose less than two decades later, calling itself the Antients (or Ancients), whereby it intended to assert greater authenticity than the rival "modern" Grand Lodge. The Antients were also known as the Athol Masons, from their first Grand Master, the Duke of Athol. Some authors (e.g., Carl Claudy) say the Antients were schismatic--i.e., had split off from the "modern" Grand Lodge; others (e.g., Allen Roberts) of more recent vintage say that the Antients were founded independently by Lodges deriving from Scottish and Irish traditions who were excluded by the English " moderns."

These competing English Grand Lodges, along with Grand Lodges established in Scotland and Ireland, issued charters for Lodges in the American colonies into the latter half of the 18th century, until the American Revolutionary War led to the ties between the colonies and the mother country being severed. Long after that event, in 1813 (when the two countries were again at war, in fact), the rival English Grand Lodges amalgamated to form the United Grand Lodge of England, which is the governing body of English Freemasonry to this day.

Meanwhile, in the new United States of America, Grand Lodges were organized separately in each state, some as offspring of Provincial Grand Lodges and some as self-declared independent Grand Lodges (e.g., Virginia). These Grand Lodges comprised Lodges whose charters had been issued by both the Antient and "modern" Grand Lodges in England (as well as a few Scottish and Irish constitution Lodges). The designation of whether a Grand Lodge was Free and Accepted or Ancient Free and Accepted was therefore almost an arbitrary choice, based perhaps on who had a bit more political power when the new Grand Lodge was formed.

In particular, one cannot conclude anything significant about the nature of the ritual used by a Grand Lodge as to its Antient or "modern" content, based only on the designation as F&AM or AF&AM. Many Grand Lodges use an amalgamation of the forms, and it would take detailed study (never having been done to my knowledge) to determine the precise provenance of each American Grand Lodge's ritual contents. It does appear that Pennsylvania may adhere most closely to the work of the Antients, while a northern tier of states, running from Connecticut through Minnesota and perhaps farther west, preserves the "modern" ritual most closely. In those states where a ritual cipher is permitted, which seems to be more a characteristic of the " moderns," the incorporation of changes to the ritual occur with much lower frequency (a fairly obvious observation). An example is the phrase "any be due," which is synonymously rendered "aught be due" in the apparently "modern" jurisdictions: The substitution of a common word ("any") for an archaic one ("aught") is a natural evolution of an oral tradition, while the reverse substitution virtually never occurs in oral transmission. The states with a printed ritual cipher have maintained "aught," while "any" has appeared in those states eschewing such written aids.

Incidentally, there are two jurisdictions which use neither F&AM nor AF&AM: The District of Columbia uses FAAM, and South Carolina uses AFM. Again, these are distinctions without any real difference.

Various suppositions are made about "four-letter" Lodges vs. "three-letter" Lodges and relationships to Prince Hall (PHA) Masonry and issues of recognition, but these are entirely unfounded.
__________________
http://morelight.org
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 10-11-2007, 07:50 AM   #7
MikeWebbInNebra
Member
 
MikeWebbInNebra is Offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kearney, NE
Posts: 34
Rep: MikeWebbInNebra is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 0
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

I am the (very) junior member of our G.L. Education Cmte and offered to be the main speaker for the Education Breakfast at the next G.L. Annual Communication - it was snapped up rather quickly and now I must prepare.

My topic concerns Ancients vs. Moderns. I've seen much discussion on this website and forums about it, and was wondering what resources you'd recommend I read to get a full picture. My hope is that your recommendations will be in our lodge library.

Many thanks in advance!

Mike Webb
PM Rob Morris Lodge #46, A.F. & A.M.
Kearney, NE
__________________
Mike Webb
PM Rob Morris Lodge #46, A.F. & A.M.
Kearney, NE
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 10-11-2007, 08:06 AM   #8
jbarr
Junior Member
 
jbarr is Offline
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14
Rep: jbarr is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 0
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

And to add confusion to the mix, I also learned that Lodges in South Carolina are referred to as " Ancient Free Masons" or A.F.M. The Grand Lodge is called the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free Masons.
__________________
-Jim
MasonicTips.com
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 10-11-2007, 08:27 AM   #9
MikeWebbInNebra
Member
 
MikeWebbInNebra is Offline
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Kearney, NE
Posts: 34
Rep: MikeWebbInNebra is on a distinguished road
Rep Power: 0
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

Sure is confusing - can't tell which they are.
__________________
Mike Webb
PM Rob Morris Lodge #46, A.F. & A.M.
Kearney, NE
  Reply With Quote

Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison
Old 12-17-2007, 10:31 AM   #10
D. W. Brown
TBL Staff
 
D. W. Brown's Avatar
 
D. W. Brown is Offline
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 652
Rep: D. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to allD. W. Brown is a name known to all
Rep Power: 10
Send a message via ICQ to D. W. Brown Send a message via Skype™ to D. W. Brown
Re: Antient and Moderns Comparison

This is a Brother Peace question, he can do it more justice than I. Brother Peace?
__________________
Dale Brown, 3°
TBL Staff
__________________

Must Reads for Every Mason:

A Peculiar System of Morality | Laudable Pursuit | The Ancient Landmarks
The Truth About the Antients and the Moderns | It's About Time

__________________

Must Visit Links for Masons:

Grand Orient de France | Grand Orient of the United States of America
The Burning Taper | Halcyon Lodge | The Philalethes Society
  Reply With Quote