Stealth

I left the MSM "let them eat cake........."

D. W. Brown

Maybe be a silly question but can anything be done through the court system?

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Stealth

Maybe I would think so. You asked to join there is no pay check, the GL is not your employer, yet they act as if they are their jurisdiction police force.

I still hope the GL of NY ignores the stupidity of the GL of KY. Nothng like an organization that calls its self a brotherhood to act like a despot.

dean@owencpa.com

I find the folks here sickening, especially those who stick there chest out and degrade Masons in the attempt to create the illusion that "I am more of a Mason than someone else "over there""...

Have you taken the time to actually TALK WITH THE GM OF KY? If you have not, and you start spouting off how that GL is racist or what ever you have forgotten the very tenants you stick your chest out and try to impress someone you follow.

Tell you what, before opening your hate spewing fly trap how about calling the GM of KY, have a CONVERSATION, and become EDUCATED on this matter. Masonry in KY is not all white, PH in KY is not all black, this is NOT a racist issue as those with tiny, closed minds want everyone to believe. This little drill of sticking your chest out as you slander Brothers who serve in the GL of KY is sickening. You may have gotten some lodge to give you a ceremony, but when you attack BROTHERS who serve in our GL’s, without getting BOTH SIDES of this story first, you are not Masons, you are typical race baiters looking to get attention for yourself by talking about how “those guys over there are so bad”.

And no, I am not in the GL, but I did take the time to make that phone call, and have enough common sense to keep from making a public comment on it. Charles is in a difficult situation, and it may be his ignorance, or it may be the ignorance of groups like the ones here, that are making his situation a lot more difficult than it needs to be.

So either make that call and get informed, shut the hell up, or stop calling yourselves Masons, because no Mason can do what this bunch is engaging in. Those men who serve in KY’s GL are Brothers, and if you do not like what they are doing, you are obligated to whisper in their ear, not get on here and spew your hate filled crap in some Masonic bashing circle jerk. And if you do not like that obligation, demit your ass out of my Masonry.

grandsecretary

First of all Dean, as a Freemason, please stop using filthy, and disgusting language, especially on a public forum.

We are informed, and exceptionally experienced in Masonic matters here, particularly on respect of Masonic jurisprudence.

The fact of the matter is that the Grand Master of The Grand Lodge of Kentucky has mis-handled this situation and your suggestion that we discuss this matter with him is quite ludicrous. That is your job young man. he is your Grand Master, not ours.

Nobody is "bashing" anybody. We are just very concerned for YOUR brother, in YOUR jurisdiction, Brother Charles Martin.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ASSIST AND DEFEND HIM? So far, nothing whatsoever.

That is all that concerns us. He is a very nice man. A respectable man. A caring and concerned individual. A man on active service in Iraq, putting his life on the line FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need to defend yourself and your Grand Lodge intelligently Brother rather than attacking people who are doing your job for you.

Now, please Brother, use the brain that God gave you and deal with this serious issue, and first and foremost think about the welfare of your, and our dear brother, Charles Martin.

dean@owencpa.com

What have I done? I have called the GM and had a personal one on one discussion about this issue, voiced my concerns, and LISTENED TO THE GM's.... So do not go there, before opening my mouth to bash a BROTHER in the GL of KY I did my homework... it is called MASONIC OBLIGATIONS, apparently you know nothing of these because if you remembered your charge it was to protect the good name of a fellow brother, and in matters of GL charges that means there are MULTIPLE Brothers involved.... just because one curries your favor do not start with the implied justification you have a right to bash the others.... because those of us who use our brain for something besides self justification of our own agenda will call you on it...

That means even if you only know half the story and think you are right and want to be on your high horse you STILL do that is it an OBLIGATION not a suggested course of action... in other words, get the facts or shut up!

I have to think of the welfare of Charles, AND Masonry in KY, AND our GM because he is a BROTHER first... I could care less for his rank, he is a good, honest, man, and VERY open about how he makes decisions and what he has to deal with, and let me assure you, this GL and GM bashing you so called Masons are engaging in will do more damage to his situation than anything possible....

And if this is not important enough to get the facts then keep your opinions to your self, do not comment on the matter if you are unwilling to take the time to research the subject... your comment makes it obvious, you would rather bash a Brother than pick up the phone and get an education on the matter.... all the while telling me about your "Masonic Experience"... well, I care less, if someone is not willing to live up to those simple obligations, no matter how good bashing a Brother makes them feel, they are a Mason in name only....

And for the record, I know of this matter EXTENSIVELY, I am 100% convinced it is being used by the race baiters and bigots to push there chest out and get attention as they bash the "other guy who I never spoke to personally"... it is the same crap our politicians pull, create an enemy and then preach against him so people will contribute to the preachers fund or vote for the politican or support the race baiter, regardless of his color...

... this is NOT a race issue, and if you did your research before opening your mouth you would know that....

but somehow I get the feeling most here prefer to bash Brothers than pick up a phone and get an education..... if that is your vast Masonic Experience you need to come to KY where Masonry is not just talked about, it is LIVED....

From what I have read, I am probably more aware of the details of this situation than anyone here except for the parties directly engaged... so stop playing the race card, it is doing far more damage than good, and it exposes your failure to follow your basic obligations....

dean@owencpa.com

By the way, Charles Martin is a civillian contractor in Afganistan, not a military person in Iraq...

And instead of calling yourself Grand Secretary, act like one... there are two sides to every story... and the bashing around here proves the jury is a bunch of uneducated Mason bashers....

if you want me to speak to you as a brother, than act like one....

Stealth

Your GL needs to show the world they are true to the words of meeting on the level. Grant recognition to EVERY BLACK MASON REGUARDLESS OF THEIR AFFILIATION WITH THE GL OF KY but more especially the PHA.

Now back to this question. Several lodges within YOUR jurisdiction have websites listing "Famous Masons" some of them listed are/were PHA Masons.

If it is unmasonic for Brother Martin to attend a MM Degree in a Logde that YOU jurisdiction has not recognized then these lodges are as guikty as you say he is. PULL THEIR CHARTERS NOW. LIVE BY YOU EDICTS AND CONSTITUTION if you're GL is unwilling to change then these lodges as gulity also.

grandsecretary

Of course there are two sides to every story, but you presume to suggest that we have not considered both sides and are taking a one sided view. That is not the case. We know EXACTLY what is at stake here, and have taken a legitimate view which obviously in not in concord with yours. We are entitled, as you are, to express that view.

The easiest road for Masons on this forum would be to ignore the situation and allow people like you to throw one of your own Brothers to the wolves without any consideration for the man.

Now for your diminishing of his situation in Iraq. Charles Martin is working in support of the war effort in Iraq. His life is in more danger than our allied armed forces because he is working outside of the green zone. And what do you do, you stab him in the back.

Now for the actual issue here. This is NOT a race issue. It is an issue which is quite clear. One of his Grand Lodges "recognises" the Lodge that he is visiting, and the other does not. This brings the entire system of Grand Lodge "recognition" into ridicule and disrepute.

If you take the trouble to read the previous postings you will see that all we have said is that the GM of the Grand Lodge of Kentucky should, yes in our opinion, suspend disciplinary action against Brother Martin until his Kentucky Grand Lodge comes into line with his New York Grand Lodge.

Now you come up with an alternative solution that will assist your brother in his time of distress.

Now, I do not "call MYSELF" a Grand Secretary, I AM a Grand Secretary, a well paid and professional Grand Secretary of many years standing, so please do not be so impertinent.

dean@owencpa.com

Well, I gotta throw the bullchit flag AGAIN.....
you do not know the subject matter, you yourself implied STRONGLY you had a right to pass judgement without knowing the facts..... and you obviously do not know the facts, and do not intend to know the facts, because you will get on here and have a fit but not do your research.... and this is some kind of experience in judicial matters????? I am glad that is not the AMERICAN style of justice.... As a Grand Secretary you should be ashamed of yourself...


As to throwing someone to the wolves, you have no comprehension of that which you speak.... kind of typical so far in the thread... I have made significant efforts to assist him in this matter.... a lot more than getting on here and trying to make this a race discussion....

And if this is how Masonry is in England, then I am glad we got past that and went to a real system of hearing both sides before passing judgement....

Using your system of "justice" it is quite evident you have broken your oath and obligation by defaming the name of a Brother Master Mason for personal recognition and the promotion of your agenda, and since we are using English version of justice here, you are guilty.... shall I expect a demit to be forth coming????

I am a vocal supporter of consideration of PH when it makes sense for both organizations, I have personally given up several life goals because KY Masonry does not recognize PH, including running for public office, so please, until you know enough of the facts to speak intelligently, shut up. You are doing more damage to Charles case..... if you and others continue to make this a race issue you will reverse 20 years of progress, all in the name of beating your own chest as you slander a Brother who has been charged to uphold a constitution and NOT MAKE UP LAWS AS HE GOES ALONG, nor to DECIDED WITH LAWS TO UPHOLD AND WHICH TO IGNORE....

Maybe if all you self richeous sounding "masons" would do some research and invest the time to EDUCATE YOURSELF before passing judgement you might find reason to betch about something besides the men you claim are your Brothers.... the organizations are different, and until they are in alignment to a sufficient degree to cause them to recognize each other they will not be recognition, until then, it is a separate organization and communicating with them is a Masonic offense. If we choose to ignore that simple fact we might as well be the Kiwanis....

But the bottom line is simple, the GM or KY is a Brother, and I find your contiued slanders of him offensive and repulsive. And from a Grand Secretary you can rest assured, in the US, that chit ain't happening, we actually believe in our obligations....